Re: [Tails-l10n] [de] non- discriminatory language

Hi,
so far, thanks for the positive reaction! (:

u:
> u:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Muri Nicanor:
>>> On 07/31/2015 02:58 PM, spriver wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe I am entering a bit controversial topic in here,
>>> thanks for that!
>>>
>>>>> but I am thinking about it a lot lately. So German is
>>>>> definitely not a gender neutral language and in my opinion
>>>>> we should take care a little bit of it in our German
>>>>> documentation and use non-discriminatory/genderneutral
>>>>> language. What do the others of the translation team think
>>>>> of it? I am looking forward for some input here ( :
>>
>> I basically like the idea to do that. Thanks for bringing it up.
>>
>> Living with 2 languages in my everyday life, I find it easier in
>> the other language than in German though, as it feels always a
>> bit didactic and unreadable to me. I have no idea if there is a
>> nice way to be gender neutral in german.

Unfortunately :/

>>> i'm totally for that. it's a pita to translate a document and
>>> then go over the text again to remove all the 'innen' i've
>>> built into the translation ;) the question for me is, which
>>> approach to use. underscore? star? Innen? innen? use both
>>> masculine and feminine (like 'Benutzerinnen und Benutzer')?
>>

I would vote for a gender gap, so either _Innen or *Innen since it
does not specify only on the binary gender model.

>> While working on a new version of the Tails installer recently,
>> I've learned that it's really important to make decisions about
>> wording only with concrete examples at hand :) So maybe we could
>> first collect some sentences and then try to make more concrete
>> proposals? Maybe you two stumbled upon specific things while
>> translating? Can you share them here?

Thanks for the idea. While reviewing today I stumbled upon this one:

"Das Hauptziel einer Fehlerbeschreibung ist es, den Entwicklern genau
zu sagen wie der Fehler reproduziert werden kann." from the bug
reporting page. In this situation we could use "den Entwickelnden"
oder a gender gap "den Entwickler*Innen". The question is also how we
can maintain a good readability (for me personally a gender gap is not
a problem for readability, it's sort of a habituation thing).

Another example:
"Das Ziel dieser Dokumentation ist zu erklären, wie man Tails benutzt
und dem Nutzer die wesentlichen Sicherheitsfeatures darzustellen."
from the introduction page. In this one we could use "den Nutzenden",
but this sounds a bit weird. So maybe a gender gap fits more in here
or a completely different term.

Last example (there a a lot of them ;) I just picked some out quickly):
"Tor wird gleichermaßen von Journalisten, Strafverfolgungsbehörden,
Regierungen, Menschenrechtsaktivisten, Geschäftsführern, dem Militär,
Missbrauchsopfern und normalen Bürgern, die sich um ihre Privatsphäre
sorgen, benutzt." from "Why does Tails use Tor?"

This one would also be a bit more complicated. Any input here?

> Adding to this: i would prefer to use neutral terms (de-gendered
> terms that is) where possible, so that we don't get stuck in the
> polarity of man and woman :)

Totally for this! In my opinion this would be the most elegant way to
go. Everyone can decide for oneself then. In places where we can't
find a good way to do so we could use a gender gap (but there would
also be the question which one ;) ).

Any suggenstions on how we should proceed with the whole thing in the
future? I guess it would be a bigger task to adjust all so far
translated pages, so maybe it would be the easiest to use gender
neutral language in all future translation/edit's of existing pages
since translating the whole doc is the primary task for now? And if
someone has time one can also adjust existing pages as a secondarily
task besides further translations.

Cheers!

spriver