On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 08:33:17PM +0100, Alessio L.R. Pennasilico wrote:
> you are actually throwing shit on everyone and everything, so ... :)
i share lots of LOVE with lots of people in our scene, you know?
OTOH i'm never afraid to say shitty things, contrary to people like
you Mayehm, dying to please everyone in every possible way.
> The problem is different: Tati was there, there was a meeting running
> between hacker spaces and Tati was not at the meeting.
right. and how many other people from the southern hemisphere were
there? everyone missed? oh yea, that's the butterfly effect right?
...
hacking is a lot about circumventing limitations, that should make
"first-world" people interested *at least once* about "third-world"
and their way to hack through scarcity. it is indeed very interesting
and a seminal response to what we used to call "digital divide".
but no, once again the same patterns here: we were first, we are the
ones. and the majority of those are northern subsidized yuppies. and
with you to complete our portrait Mayhem: the italian clown running
around with grappa and sport cars, rather than representing the real
scene here, that was honoured by the visit of Wau Holland in 1999
(putting bananas in parked cars in his free time, one would have been
surely yours) and that is opening grassroot hacker spaces since more
than 10 years now, every year, and in Spain too
http://www.hackmeeting.org
ultimately i do not believe there was a planned separation in this
initiative, but i do believe there is a lot of ignorance and serious
need for humble people that know better how to work with a social
movement, radical differences and an horizontal process for editorial
work (as in writing code).
i'm not proposing myself in that role of course, i guess it is obvious
i'm just good at getting hangry at injustice and maybe writing
software. please note at this time of the year i could just enjoy
southern food with my family and sit on my ass: but nope, i really
feel the urge to point out some problems *now*, because enough is
enough and too late might be too late.
> They are doing something, people that want to be involved get
> involved. They are not the leader that should take care of someone,
> they are a part of the community, and the community should help
> them. not viceversa.
sure, setting up anal deadlines for their own showup to be in time.
>> no the problem is to have fake yuppies like you being around with a
>> BMW Z3 and money to pay international flights to misrepresent
>> completely our scene and throw bullshit around, then back to italy
>> collaborating with police forces to "profile" criminal hackers. i
>> just hope the face you are putting on top of "italian scene" drawns
>> in your rotten grappa.
>
> 1. inform yourself before talking: I have a lotus elise, not a bmw :)
i sincerely hope you end up parking in the next banlieues, you and
your car deserve it SO much, bloodclot.
> 2. inform yourself before talking: i've never worked or collaborated
> with police in italy
oh sure. sure.
as if *that* would be the problem.
that is not the problem. the problem is the *method*.
there is people actually collaborating with legal forces to explain
them what really happens with hacking: that 18 years old kids hacking
into a system are not as criminals as companies selling security
measures for hundred thousands schekels.
i for myself have spoken publicly in front of rows of higher court
judges about these and other issues in Eu-rope. that is *not* the
problem. the problem is whom you listen to and what you do it for:
thats your problem Mayhem, bloodclot.
> 3. inform yourself before talking: the hackers profiling project do
> not collaborate with any police in any place
sure, that's why you profile and offer consultancy even in this mail.
> If being good in my job, and earning money for that, is a problem
> for you, it's not my fault, it's not my problem. Me or my company
> do not work or collaborate with police, but would be glad to do
> that: may be we could help them in harden their infrastructure and
> better protect our data. I do not like they have data about me, but
> they have... many CCC people do the same, many of them quitted when
> they start asking to code malware to infect citizens pc. what's the
> problem? About HPP, do you really think that if we collaborate with
> police with that data, FX of phenoelit would help us?
>
> I'm really tired of you lying about me, being envy about my work
> (and my money). Please, inform yourself and stop lying: then we can
> discuss about everything...
there is no lie in what i say and now it is my word against yours, and
we have whitnesses. let it be also that i'm absolutely not envy of
bloodclot like you, this is so obvious for people knowing me well.
> From them (Philippe, Bre, Nick) I only hear "send materials, help
> us". I see no raised wall...
thanks guys. thanks for your understanding. i'm serious here.
> ok, so stop writing "... or we will delete ourself from
> hackerspace.org ..." and start asking "how can I help you?".
> usually this work :)
been there, done that. i proposed we avoid filling it up in the
ultimate case some voluntary obstruction is there - and that was just
my *final* consideration.
>>> [update because I am now here at CCC] I talk with my friend bre
>>> last night: the deadline was abou the pdf to be presented at 25C3,
>>> but can be edited in the future months, so all the missing
>>> hacklabs can be integrated.
>>
>> right. it wasn't clear so far.
>
> that was not so clear reading your threaten emails of past days ...
there was no *threat*.
there are critical considerations and proposed actions.
>> what about enlarging the editorial group? and opening up the
>> submission committee with people that is actually *visiting* the
>> places - and not like "oh i received a phonecall from south-africa,
>> how exciting!
>
> I'm quite sure that if more people will offer to really help, they
> will not refuse some needed help to manage this huge project.
i did offer, more might come, maybe not? depends how ridicolous the
whole panel looks like now and how constructive will be the outcome of
this thread.
i couldn't watch the whole stream since from down here the network is
quite slow, damn. waiting for postproduced materials to be up for
download.
ciao
- --
jaromil, dyne.org developer,
http://jaromil.dyne.org
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